Please Define That...
Natural Progressive Evolutionists(NPE): billions of years, cosmological evolution, molecules to man biological evolution. Dirt (molecules) to life, simple to complex. Denies catastrophic global processes such as Noah’s Flood.
Theistic Evolutionists: God began deep time progressive evolutionary processes, the designer behind (kind of like the Engineers from the movie Prometheus), and let the "evolutionary" process run for billions of years. Denies catastrophic global processes such as Noah’s Flood.
Old Earth Creationists: God created, but used billions of years. no progressive evolution - not in fossil record or in genetics / biology, but billions of years of stellar evolution, and billions of years of life and geologic process on earth. Denies catastrophic global processes such as Noah’s Flood.
When it comes to the age of the earth/universe question, I first respond that I am neither young earther or old earther, I am a Supernaturalist. Second, to accept the label “Young Earth” is to concede redefinition, old is relative to comparison, such as fast and slow.
What is a supernaturalist? It is all about Who we claim is the Creator, Yahweh, the Christ, we claim to worship as the author of the Bible. The Bible clearly communicates this Being to be the only eternal, immortal, outer-dimensional being, who superseeds space, time and matter, for they are His creation.
I am a supernaturalist, because I serve the ultimate supernatural being.
Supernatural Creationist - Degenerative Evolutionist (SC_DE)
There is change, speciation, adaptation, mutations, natural selection, but this results in tuning, stasis and degeneration not in a progressive creation of features and genetic information. Genetic entropy - speciation to extinction.
Back to the tile of this post and the question….
Did Jesus created old wine?
AKA, What is a supernatural act of God, and how would it be viewed by naturalistic science?
Okay, The gospels record a few of the “miraculous” supernatural acts of Jesus - Emanuelle. I say a few, because the writers claim there were many more. John 21:25
Your naturalist friend has to use the bathroom, but you stay and before your very eyes the water is changed into wine, really good wine. Your naturalist friend comes back from the facilities and you naturally shout out, or blaber out the story of the miracle. But your scientifically - materialistic minded friend doesn't believe. He wants to test the wine, determine it’s age, even genetically test it to see what grapes / vinyard it came from. Would the Wine that was water a few minutes ago appear scientifically old? Well if Jesus could supersede time and natural processes in other miracles, like healing a cut off ear in minutes, healing sick people instantly , regenerating dysfunctional organs, such as eyes. Or how hard is this, bringing dead cells and whole people back to life, which I have to argue is not scientifically, naturalistically possible, than with all that said. The Wine was old, aged, fermented at least to some extent, organic. What’s my point, and why does it matter?
God’s supernatural acts are done in immediacy, supernaturally and fully formed and functioning. Every example I could find in the Bible when God claims to act supernaturally or there is ample contextual evidence of Him doing a supernatural act, that act or “miracle” happens in immediacy, fast, defying naturalistic time-filled processes. Second, other natural laws or processes may be superseded. And third, the act of God whether Jesus or the Father results in a fully formed and functioning system, healing, or form. The wine was all the way wine, not water in process of becoming wine over days or years.
So if you believe all this about the supernatural acts of Jesus ministry on earth, than why don’t those same principles apply to his supernatural acts of creation found in Genesis? It was Jesus who did the Creation, aka the Godhead.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Ephesians 3:9"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"
Hebrews 1:2"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
Was creation a natural process or a supernatural process? or a mix? The Bible adequately describes both - Jesus incarnation/ inception - supernatural. His gestation in Mary as a baby and birth - natural. The plagues on Egypt and against their gods could be a mix as well.
I will cite the Bible on how God claimed to have created. He claims that creation was supernatural, as a result of his direct actions, from nothing.
He spoke, word of God - supernatural acts, just as Jesus spoke.
Psalm 33:6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Revelation 4:11 “Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.”
He formed and spread
Hebrews 10:1 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Isaiah 42:5 Thus says God, the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:
Jeremiah 10:12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.
Isaiah alludes to how rapidly Creation may have occurred
Isaiah 48:2-17 the God of Israel; the Lord of hosts is his name.
3 “The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, ‘My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.’
12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens;
16 Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit. 17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God,
Adam claims he was alone, and found no other creature like him, he claims Eve was the mother of all humans.
Claiming Jesus can be supernatural in his ministry, but not in His creation of the universe is disenginuious, and disrespectful and at worst making ourselves out to be the proclaimers of reality and to know better than God how thing were created.
God could have created instantly, with days or over millions of years? A supernaturalist will answer, it could have been days or millennia, but God is not limited to my understanding of science or reality.
The real question is... What kind of a Being does God claim to be, and how did He say he did it (creation)?
Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Are you really ready to say, “God you can only do things the way I understand them to be done.” Are you ready to make God the plow-horse of naturalistic evolution? Pulling creation through the eons of time; through chance, death, disease, suffering to what we have today? By that definition, creation is never finished - evolution continues, and If there never was a real Eden - a designed world of beauty, harmony and life, that was destroyed by the rebellion of Humanity. Than what are Christians looking forward to? The Bible claims Heaven will be a place where Eden is restored. But if Eden was a place of death, disease, mutations, struggle for life, chance, decay, pain, suffering, than what kind of restoration is that? Because there never was a real Eden, there never was a real fall, Genesis either talks about real things or it talks about fake things, fairy tales meant to share spiritual truths, but if those truths are illustrated by fantasy, we are to be most pitied among men. There is no resurrection and restoration, for that is the ultimate supernatural act, defying naturalistic processes, and materialistic science.
Even Richard Dawkins understood that either man determines reality (a strict naturalistic scientific world view) or God does, a revealed supernatural world view). saw video, trying to track down quotation on this issue
The Two books of Revelation. Is God lying to us through science if He created things that look old/ mature? Does the book of creation (general revelation) lie? Is any supernatural act of God (a miracle) a lie of nature? No, Because God said He is a supernatural being and He can act supernaturally - superseding natural processes, laws, our currently observed reality.
This is an often used argument against rapid creation or young earth worldview. Often used by Hugh Ross at Reasons to Believe, Biologos, etc.
If things have the appearance of age- being fully formed and functioning, God is not lying to us, because he has revealed his supernatural nature and supernatural ability to create fully formed functioning systems that defy naturalistic process, aka the miracles of Jesus and OT.
A great article on the “Two Books…” http://www.jasonlisle.com/2017/03/10/the-two-book-fallacy-again/#more-278
Which leads us to ...
Science is a handicapped observational system, and can not observe all of reality.
Scientists of two hundred + years ago could not observe deep space, microscopic worlds, UV light, infrared, radio waves, etc. Were these things not real, just because humans at the time could not observe them. If you’re a naturalistic, materialistic scientist - NP evolutionist, than those things weren't real. For them man determines reality. We have built machines to stretch our observational horizons, but how much more is there to observe? Is the supernatural, God, other dimensions, etc just the not yet observed. The Bible claims that humans originally could observe the spiritual dimensions, but have lost that ability due to rebellion, separations and degeneration.
Science, the collected and tested observations of humanity is extremely frail, susceptible to politicising agendas and can be wiped out by a burp of the earth, just ask the scientist of Pompeii.
The “knowledge” of Science is ever changing and overturned, It is time to act with humility when it comes to science.
Natural Progressive Evolutionists are supernaturalists too, in many of their origins beliefs.
NPE believe life came from non-life, a process that defies natural and scientific laws.
They believe the universe came from nothing, stars form from dust clouds, dark matter, dark energy and many other things that have never been observed, tested and often defy natural scientific laws must exist or have happened to fit their theories.
The best scientific arguments I have found for supernatural creation and "young" life on earth.
What Questions does this issue raise for you? Where to you see the evidence leading? I would love to hear your comments and you can find more great material at www.OriginsUnited.com/books and www.searchcreation.org
Another great book on Naturalism / Atheism
Old Vs.Young: could it be both?
Time Dilation Theory
Future blog related topics
How is the age of the earth and the universe determined naturalistically.
interesting scientific evidence for young universe and earth
interesting scientific evidence for old earth / universe
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